Better pay for models

[Beemer]

Originally Posted by The virtual wife

I don't think tipping per se is degrading at all.

I have to agree with VW on this. I used to do ad hoc sessions at an AE establishment where the pay was particularly poor. The tutor would always "pass the hat" at the end of the session and take home pay for the night was boosted by £10 - £15. When the hourly pay rate was increased by 75p per hour (less tax) the tutor stopped the practise and the model was very much worse off. I guess I don't need to spell out which of the 2 options I'd choose.

I certainly didn't feel degraded by accepting the contents of the hat. The feeling was much more one of gratification that people appreciated what I had done for them. I have to say that I find accepting a round of applause infinitely more difficult!

I still do occasional sessions at this place; certainly not for the money but because the tutor is brilliant to work with and I still I look forward to working with him enormously. Sometimes money isn't the be all and end all.

I guess the downside to the tipping scenario is that in a group situation people feel obliged to contribute, regardless of the level of service given. It would be very interesting to know how the amout collected varied by model!

Paul.

[studioAIR]

As an artist I fight hard within my area to get proper pay recognition for models. I get slammed from some of my artist "Friends" because I am told that I can afford to pay good rates because I sell my work through private commissions and through galleries, which I find a rather weak argument.

The models in my paintings are an integral part of my success and I incorporate their fee into the selling cost of my work. I registered with RAM to support life models with good background experience and believe that £15.00/hr is an honourable amount. I also take into consideration travel expenses and depending on the distance usually reimburse at the rate of a second class rail ticket or equivalent petrol mileage. Most times more.

I have only had to cancel a model once and on that occasion paid the model for her time as it was due to my circumstances that the cancellation occurred and not hers. In fact without mentioning her name she is a member on this site, so could no doubt validate my words.

I hate the fact that so many life groups in our area pay their models sub ten pounds an hour and because of that models seem to come and go and no longer have an interest in their own contribution to an artists work.

Any way hello everyone. I've been away for a few months and have just managed to vent my spleen.

kindest regards,

Andrew

[JaneFlux]

Originally Posted by studioAIR

As an artist I fight hard within my area to get proper pay recognition for models. I get slammed from some of my artist "Friends" because I am told that I can afford to pay good rates because I sell my work through private commissions and through galleries, which I find a rather weak argument.

The models in my paintings are an integral part of my success and I incorporate their fee into the selling cost of my work. I registered with RAM to support life models with good background experience and believe that £15.00/hr is an honourable amount. I also take into consideration travel expenses and depending on the distance usually reimburse at the rate of a second class rail ticket or equivalent petrol mileage. Most times more.

I have only had to cancel a model once and on that occasion paid the model for her time as it was due to my circumstances that the cancellation occurred and not hers. In fact without mentioning her name she is a member on this site, so could no doubt validate my words.

I hate the fact that so many life groups in our area pay their models sub ten pounds an hour and because of that models seem to come and go and no longer have an interest in their own contribution to an artists work.

Any way hello everyone. I've been away for a few months and have just managed to vent my spleen.

kindest regards,

Andrew

"I hate the fact that so many life groups in our area pay their models sub ten pounds an hour and because of that models seem to come and go and no longer have an interest in their own contribution to an artists work."

Very important/crucial words!!

[priceb61]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Tony R]

I cannot bring myself to sympathise with a group that 'cannot' pay at least £12 per hour. It is a truly tiny amount of money.

[JSMod]

Originally Posted by studioAIR

I hate the fact that so many life groups in our area pay their models sub ten pounds an hour and because of that models seem to come and go and no longer have an interest in their own contribution to an artists work.

I am reminded of those immortal words spoken by an anonymous wordsmith:

"Pay peanuts and you get monkeys"

[DennisS_000]

This topic has stirred my conscience so I have upped the pay at my Wirral session and also now models get a free complimentary pot of home made jam or chutney!

[Big Frog]

Great news Dennis! How is your group doing? My group has seen lots of new faces this year.

[DaveBiss]

Originally Posted by DennisS

This topic has stirred my conscience so I have upped the pay at my Wirral session and also now models get a free complimentary pot of home made jam or chutney!

Well done Dennis! Good on you.
And what a wonderful idea. I'd do all of my best poses for a free pot of homemade jam. Anyone got any other ideas for sweetners for models?
Dave.

[simplyLeah]

me taking home a pot of homemade jam or chutney would def keep my husband happy:)

[alisonglithero]

Originally Posted by JaneFlux

Ho Hum I resigned back in June (didn't want as I really enjoy working for a particular university)..There was alot of haggling and humming and harring about this and that and words bandied around.but again its that distinction between time/payroll and they decreased the rate from £10..something pence to £7.something because they had "re-graded" the life modelling status (together with some pompus words and thoroughly long letter they issued to models)..I spoke to the Line Manager who was up in arms (plus my Tutor; who I am still in contact with) because she wants me back but also realises that 'life modelling' is NOT just about sitting on a stool in the traditional stance as she has plenty of models who will do anything for an easy life or some sleep...(and is actually my worst pet hate, so I rarely do); Its a shame; but my Line Manager again asked me for rates as per other places but their ears are 'blocked'...

Local Council I work for just doing a complete re grade and have hooked life models in with admin staff. Want us to sign new contracts accepting 45% pay cut and then fill out appeal forms. Their are several life models in the pool and they only want to pay us £6.56

I will be naming and shaming them on RAM

[julie]

Indeed, that's absolutely disgraceful. Could they also be named and shamed on here or is that against the rules?

[alisonglithero]

Going to fight our corner first but if no joy will be named in the largest letters you have ever seen. I've worked for this council for over ten years I'm not going to "lay down" and give up without one hell of a fight. Already getting students "behind" us. Excuse the puns but need a sense of humour in times like these.
Will just say though the council motto is "Improving life for local people" Not from where I'm sitting

[julie]

Glad to hear that it will be fought. You have my whole hearted support. What a small cost saving it would make for the council - such a short sighted move. Now they must pay the other costs in demoralising, alienating and angering their staff and students, and it sounds like you will give them a run for their money! Good luck

[Big Frog]

Shocking stuff. I don't mind them being named on here.

[JSMod]

Originally Posted by alisonglithero

Local Council I work for just doing a complete re grade ... Want us to sign new contracts accepting 45% pay cut...

This seems to be another symptom of councils' attempts generally to cut (some) costs at the moment. Here in Leeds all the refuse collectors' pay structures have been revised, supposedly to equalise men's pay with women's (fair enough), but this has resulted in the men's pay plummeting. The result? A strike, no bin collections for four weeks now, and the streets are getting worse, and worse, and worse...

If that's what happens to "essential" workers, I can't imagine how they're treating life models!

[JaneFlux]

Originally Posted by DennisS_000

This topic has stirred my conscience so I have upped the pay at my Wirral session and also now models get a free complimentary pot of home made jam or chutney!

how beautifully sweet (home made jam) YUM.

[JaneFlux]

Originally Posted by alisonglithero

Local Council I work for just doing a complete re grade and have hooked life models in with admin staff. Want us to sign new contracts accepting 45% pay cut and then fill out appeal forms. Their are several life models in the pool and they only want to pay us £6.56

I will be naming and shaming them on RAM

Chrissakes!!!!!!

[Laurieb102]

How degrading is that! I hope you refuse towork for them!

[Tony R]

Rates are still laughable:

LONDON (South Kensington): We need a male model to pose for around 30 students at a relaxed university art society session. These sessions are tutored. Monday 15th February 6.30-8.30pm. 20 pounds for 2 hours. Please contact me if you are interested for more details.

[etheric]

If people don't want to pay more money to life models, most of the models they are going to end up with are the cheesy pervs who wouldn't mind doing it for free. When I took life classes we had a couple of those, but most of the other models were pretty good. If the places knew that they might want to keep the pay at a decent rate. With better pay at least you can be more selective and have more people willing to do it.

[PaulLD]

I work as a Life Model and am also involved in trying to set up two life drawing groups; one in SE London and one in north London. Our groups will meet for 3 hours, with 2 1/2 hours actual 'sitting' for the model. We have factored in a payment of £40 per session for the models, which we can meet with 10 artists present. If we had more artists then we would be able to increase the amount by £3 per extra artist, so if we had 15 we would pay £55.

It is not difficult to do the sums and as our models are THE key part of the group I think it right that we should start off at a reasonable figure (that we can afford) and increase it according to the number of artists (ie pay the maximum we can afford).

I am only too aware of travelling etc; and when one sets out at 5pm and gets home at 10:30, £20 is just not good enough - £4 per hour less £7 fares.

Not sure what the answer is: we will only use RAM models and a lot of these are young ladies, often at college, who desperately need to make a few pounds to help them see their education through. I would not want to be part of anything that would seem to exploit their situation.

[Tony R]

Originally Posted by PaulLD

It is not difficult to do the sums

we will only use RAM models

It certainly isn't. Methinks too many organisers want to take too much money for themselves.

Why?

[Big Frog]

I set up my own group primarily as there was nothing for me in the area back then, and secondly as a service for the local community (I have set up other clubs in the past for various pastimes).

It is nice when the group makes a bit of cash for me (or Ceris) but this is usually swallowed up when purchasing new props and lighting etc. Not to mention the time taken out of my day job that is often required when a model cancels and I have to start panicking.

I pay £30 for a 2hr session which includes a 15min break. So with the break taken out our models are actually on a rate of £17+ph.

However, in answer to your question Tony, it isn't unreasonable to expect other organisers to want to earn a bit of cash for their time but they must balance everything perfectly otherwise the finances will collapse. A friend of mine runs a workshop and charges a fair old hike to the artists present. If he dropped his prices slightly I think he would be covering his costs better as more would turn up.

[DaveBiss]

Originally Posted by PaulLD

Our groups will meet for 3 hours, with 2 1/2 hours actual 'sitting' for the model. We have factored in a payment of £40 per session for the models, which we can meet with 10 artists present. If we had more artists then we would be able to increase the amount by £3 per extra artist, so if we had 15 we would pay £55.


I am only too aware of travelling etc; and when one sets out at 5pm and gets home at 10:30, £20 is just not good enough - £4 per hour less £7 fares.

As the person who started this thread I have to say well done Paul. If ony more organisers thought as you do although, as a model yourself, you are perhaps more aware than most of the issues. £55 for three hours would indeed be a good rate but I'm aware that London is another country and that sort of payment rate is probably unrealistic elsewhere. But BF has also shown what is possible in a well run session with realistic fees. You will, I'm sure, have a long queue of excellent models all the way round the block. Good luck, and on behalf of models everywhere, many thanks.
Dave.

[Tony R]

Originally Posted by Big Frog

However, in answer to your question Tony, it isn't unreasonable to expect other organisers to want to earn a bit of cash for their time but they must balance everything perfectly otherwise the finances will collapse. A friend of mine runs a workshop and charges a fair old hike to the artists present. If he dropped his prices slightly I think he would be covering his costs better as more would turn up.

It's completely reasonable. I am simply looking at what artists are charged and the organiser's running costs - then looking at what is paid to models. More often than not, when I do those sums, it's clear the model is being paid a pittance.

[Big Frog]

Yep, but don't forget about room rent too.

I only wish my studio was suitable for running my life class. It would bring the overheads right down.

[Tony R]

Originally Posted by Big Frog

Yep, but don't forget about room rent too.

I only wish my studio was suitable for running my life class. It would bring the overheads right down.

Oh I know about all the costs. I have to do exactly the same thing when I run a hen party.

[Gazira]

Tricky issue. I can see it from the point of view of both artist and model (higher ed institutions have no excuse of course!) since I'm looking into getting a few more jobs modelling but also trying to think of how to keep my local artist's group going as it's running out of money (Big Frog - same user name on W/C? Might want to pick your brains a bit...).

I've definitely seen models who have earned their money (one Brazilian lad we got at the Cartoon Centre in London was doing handstands and splits for us!) but there are also those who just sit on a stool looking vacant.

One possible problem is that artists do really need all types of models and the 19 stone middle aged woman with the dodgy back is still a good subject to draw. You could argue that she's not really earning her money in the same way the athletic Brazilian lad did, but short of setting up some sort of grading system, which would just be wrong on so many levels, I'm not sure how to get round it.

[Big Frog]

Hello Gazira, yes it's me off W/C! I do like my forums :) Feel free to pick my brains on a new thread!

As for differing rates of pay for each model, I don't think that would be fair. It is much simpler to just give more work to the more popular models. In turn, that should make the lazier models work harder.

What makes popular? It can be much more than just working hard. A topic for a new thread I think!

[PaulLD]

I feel the model is THE most important part of the group; we are not setting up the groups because we want to make a few quid; we love art, I love being part of it and fascilitating artists in their work. The more money in the pot the better we can reward the models. I know I may spend 3 hours travelling for a 3 hour session - that's 6 hours; for what I am sometimes offered £25. If we manage to pay £50, that's still less than £10 an hour and that's WITHOUT travelling expenses, which usually cost me £10. How many artists would be happy to take all their clothes off and sit in front of, maybe 20 people, in all sorts of positions, for long periods, often, at present, in freezing rooms, and all for very little money - very few I have asked. Part of my incentive is my love of art and the joy of being a part of some wonderful creative work - but I do want something out of it too.

[Gazira]

Originally Posted by Big Frog

Hello Gazira, yes it's me off W/C! I do like my forums :) Feel free to pick my brains on a new thread!

As for differing rates of pay for each model, I don't think that would be fair. It is much simpler to just give more work to the more popular models. In turn, that should make the lazier models work harder.

What makes popular? It can be much more than just working hard. A topic for a new thread I think!

Gotcha. I'm using a pretty similar name over there too (I use the same basic Japanese transliteration on a few forums, but then forget how to spell it. ).

I'll give the problem a bit of think and get back to you either here or on W/C, cheers.

[Big Frog]

Originally Posted by Gazira

I'll give the problem a bit of think and get back to you either here or on W/C, cheers.

Oh, on here please! They are busy enough over there!

We could do with a few more artists on here ;)

[andymuse]

We run as a collective and so the regular sessions are charged at £5 per artist and all income is shared between the two models working the session. There is no tutor and we have the premises for free. Sometimes the income isexcellent. Now the session is established we are walking away with an average of £25 for an hours modeling and for an hour and a half at the session.
We think that £15 per hour is a good rate but will discount a little for regular bookings.

[alisonglithero]

[quote=alisonglithero;15128]Local Council I work for just doing a complete re grade and have hooked life models in with admin staff. Want us to sign new contracts accepting 45% pay cut and then fill out appeal forms. Their are several life models in the pool and they only want to pay us £6.56

The boards still out on this....the appeals process as not even begun yet.....may it never begin... Original rate of £11.50 ish protected for time being...

Thank you for all encouraging support will keep you posted......